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I am starting my second classical guitar. What value does shape add to tone. I hand drew my first and it does not have a traditional classical shape. I bought an LMI kit and it has plans. Should I go with this shape or alter it?

Thanks,

Doug Ubele

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Guitars...One's too many...Twenty is not enough.

Shape does have an impact in as much as it will determine the area of the vibrating top and air volume along with the depth. Also in my experiance guitars with tighter waist's will sound somewhat tighter than with a larger waist. I like the looks of a tighter waist but recently have opened that area up on the guitars I have designed. You'll notice that most Martin guitars are not as tight waisted as others. If you feel creative though, go for it.

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Tickle your guitar daily, and it'll tickle you back.

For what it's worth, I'm starting my first two. I had the same question that you do although I was looking at it from a different standpoint. I, with advice obtained here, ended up buying several sets of plans. I chose those plans that were of guitars that I had heard and liked. Namely, Torres, Fleta and Hauser. I'm glad I did as it gave my an opportunity to compare bracing etc. I also bought the book on Torres, it is a great source of inspiration because you see just how spoiled we are.

Hope this helps, Steve Brown

IMHO, I would concentrate on building the shape included in the plans for now. This way you can concentrate on the top bracing and other building aspects until you get the sound you are aiming for. The classical guitar and others for that matter, have evolved over time into the shapes we have today. Why not use the knowledge of past builders who have already done the experimenting to arrive at the shapes we have nowadays? After you have an acceptable sound and your construction techniques down, if you want to make changes to body size I would say go right ahead.

Robbie hit is on the head...many very successful classical builders use the same shape outline (plantilla) their entire building career, always focusing on refining their building technique, bracing and voicing.

In general there are far fewer variations in shape with classical guitars than steel strings so there is much more to experiment on inside the box than on the outside with the shape.

A more interesting learning experience would be to pick a shape that you like and after you have built several guitars, try different layouts and dimensions of bracing.

The Torres book by Romanillos (Antonio De Torres- Guitar Maker- His Life and Work) is excellent as it shows the dimensions of all of the surviving examples of his work as well as details including number of braces, cross braces and such.

Another interesting aspect brought out by Romanillos that has not been discussed in other books on classical construction is the amount of cubic volume that each guitar contained. This is the factor that is affected when increasing the depth, dimensions or overall shape.

I would tend to agree with Robbie's statements. The guitar is such a dynamic instrument and it's sound is so much created by the give and take of myriad different parameters that to start with a tried and true design is really the way to go.

How did your first sound? Good? Bad? In some ways great? In some ways not so great? What ever the answer the question in your mind has to be is it because of the shape? If you had used a tried and true shape then the question would be about other things. Braces, wood thickness, wood species, ETC.

Keep in mind I'm a nOObie with only, just now, #5 on the bench.

Ronn

Good advise.....What guitar does the LMI plan mimick?

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Guitars...One's too many...Twenty is not enough.

[QUOTE=dubell] Good advise.....What guitar does the LMI plan mimick?[/QUOTE]

The LMI plans are done by Bill Lewis and are of a "modern spanish guitar" They closely resemble the Hernandez and Aguado 2 plans shown in Courtnall's book Making Master Guitars. There are many things you can experiment with without changing the shape of the guitar. Also, LMI sells plans by other makers as well.

Robbie,

What about your plans that accompany your Classical Guitar Making DVD? What is that shape modeled after?

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Guitars...One's too many...Twenty is not enough.

LMI also sells plans that are in the Roy Courtnall book...an excellent book and a must have reference in a classical guitar builders library. All of Roy's plans are 650 scale but show the different bracing and thicknesses the different builders used.

Torres, Hauser and Romanillos all use a smaller shape whereas more modern designs such as Ramirez have stretched the limits in longer string lengths from 650mm to 660+ with a much bigger overall size and fatter at the waist shape. If you have large hands you can opt for a larger pattern and string length but the majority are 650mm and are better suited to an average hand.

I have small hands so stretches on a 660mm scale are close to impossible for me so I stick with a 650 scale and often will use a LaCote school (pre Torres) guitar that has a 608mm scale but that still has a surprisingly big sound for a small bodied guitar. Panormo was known for having a big sound and his plantilla is as small or smaller than Torres.

I would also recommend Robbie's DVD...absorb all you can from books and plans but it is nice to connect to someone walking through the very step that you are about to tackle...it makes it much more tangible and will boost your confidence...half of classical building is about taking in all of what you have studied about great historical examples such as Torres, Hauser, et al and then developing your craft to execute a classical guitar of your own...

Every classical guitar builders instruments are an homage to the great luthiers that blazed a trail and is a light to the future as we interpret the masters in the variations we introduce into a very familiar form and shape. If you look at what some of the great classical builders today are building (Ruck, Elliot, Brune, Byers, Humphrey, Smallman et al) you will see mostly tradition but with each building adding his unique mark which helps to shape the market. You can look at each of their guitars that look like a Hauser, a Santos or whoever they emulate, but the sound will all be different, just in a narrower range than differences in steel string sound.

[QUOTE=dubell] Robbie,

What about your plans that accompany your Classical Guitar Making DVD? What is that shape modeled after?
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My classical guitar shape and dimensions closely resemble those of Hernandez and Aguado or Fleta according to Roy Courtnall's book. There are slight differences but here are my measurements: Upper bout: 283mm.   Waist: 247mm. Lower bout: 368mm. Total length: 495mm.
In my "Build a Classical Guitar" DVD I show LMI plans but actually build using my measurments with a Fleta bracing for the top. I also give my measurements for other things such as brace sizes, bridge dimensions etc of the Fleta influenced guitar in the DVD. The LMI plans in the dvd don't have these obviously. You can also download a free PDF file from my website that gives complete dimensions for the guitar in the DVD.
www.obrienguitars.com